tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post114735900364677297..comments2023-07-20T10:30:43.820-05:00Comments on Musings of a Minor Mennonite: Why We Are AngryDan Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08387429717617727003noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1150382622109232592006-06-15T09:43:00.000-05:002006-06-15T09:43:00.000-05:00And proud of it!And proud of it!browniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07354905880188521976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1150316010239780482006-06-14T15:13:00.000-05:002006-06-14T15:13:00.000-05:00Brownie, you are such a hippieBrownie, you are such a hippieDan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08387429717617727003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1150302590283517042006-06-14T11:29:00.000-05:002006-06-14T11:29:00.000-05:00"Love one another, as I have loved you..." -Jesus..."Love one another, as I have loved you..." -Jesus of Nazareth<BR/><BR/>If we can maintain love for one another while debating our political adversaries, then yes, all is well and good. But when it deteriorates into name calling, unfounded accusations, and personal bitterness, we are deviating from the path of love. <BR/><BR/>And I love the path of love.browniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07354905880188521976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1147453451612580722006-05-12T12:04:00.000-05:002006-05-12T12:04:00.000-05:00For instance, would the Talmadic tradition be so e...<I>For instance, would the Talmadic tradition be so even keeled about torture as a legitimate interrogation technique</I><BR/><BR/>No. this is absolutely against the teachings of the Talmud, and I would reason that the pricipal described here is about debate itself, not evil acts. <BR/><BR/>But remember, we do have enemies and the reason for this is precisely owing to our enemies' refusal to see humanity in Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc. We don't want to be like them. Healthy debate is an indicator of the best of humanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1147452929104398322006-05-12T11:55:00.000-05:002006-05-12T11:55:00.000-05:00The trick is to make people accountable for their ...<I>The trick is to make people accountable for their actions without dehumanizing them...</I><BR/><BR/>bingo!<BR/><BR/>Corrupt is a much better word--more accurate. 'Self-serving ends', dubious ends', if I think of others I will let you know. <BR/><BR/>But a fine improvementAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1147452304725870912006-05-12T11:45:00.000-05:002006-05-12T11:45:00.000-05:00After re-reading the original post, I can see how ...After re-reading the original post, I can see how "evil" could actually be misapplied to have meant all Republicans are evil, which isn't what I meant. It was mostly meant as a joke in the context I put it in, alongside Democrats being weenies.<BR/><BR/>So, I changed it to "corrupt". Republicans are just about as corrupt these days as Democrats are weenies :)Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08387429717617727003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1147445708095168442006-05-12T09:55:00.000-05:002006-05-12T09:55:00.000-05:00I actually heartily agree with most of this articl...I actually heartily agree with most of this article, and I do also honestly appreciate your comments orinda.<BR/><BR/>Respecting other people's views is exactly right, with one major exeption - when they are doing things that really are evil. For instance, would the Talmadic tradition be so even keeled about torture as a legitimate interrogation technique? <BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure Bush himself isn't an evil man, but many of his policies and the actions of his administration have certainly been, or if not outright evil, they have been exactly the opposite of Jesus' teachings.<BR/><BR/>I think it actually perpetuates these evils to try to be "balanced and fair" about them. They are wrong, and we shouldn't make excuses for them.<BR/><BR/>But anger does not equal hatred and strongly worded positions do not equal lack of respect. The trick is to make people accountable for their actions without dehumanizing them, and always hold out the hope and opportunity for grace.<BR/><BR/>I don't always succeed at what I value. Evil is a strong word that shouldn't be thrown around lightly. But I use it to describe the actions of people, and not to make ultimate judgement of them, which is not for me (or anyone) to do.<BR/><BR/>Again, I appreciate your challenging me on this orinda, as it is important to be called on it myself.Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08387429717617727003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1147441885399866692006-05-12T08:51:00.000-05:002006-05-12T08:51:00.000-05:00I've calmed down some over the last year and half....<I>I've calmed down some over the last year and half. After all, this is politics - it isn't like there is an evil side and a good side. Right now, there is an evil side and a bumbling, wishy-washy, too-afraid-to-offend-anyone side. </I><BR/><BR/>Here's a quote from Rabbi Levi Brackman on the art of passionate disagreement which Mennonite bloggers might learn something from:<BR/><BR/><I>Having recently moved from Britain to Colorado in the United States, my wife and I are undergoing a culture shock. We have been disarmed by the friendliness of people and, compared to the UK, how inexpensive petrol (gas) is. We are also happy to see how many regular products have a kosher symbol on them. Another pleasant aspect of our move has been the staggering natural beauty of Colorado.<BR/><BR/>However there is one characteristic that has significantly disappointed and disturbed me. Healthy and balanced political debate does not seem to exist in the United States. Instead, both sides of the political spectrum seem to have their own media outlets where they vent their incredibly polarized and uncontested political views--often with the aim of discrediting the opinions of their ideological opponents. The problem with this is that the two sides talk at each other rather than to each other and as a result suspicion and hate festers. The situation is acute--people seem to have utter contempt for anyone with different ideological and political views.<BR/><BR/>To be sure, it is good that people are passionate about their individual political and ideological views. However if one only converses with like-minded people one will never know when one errs. The Torah says, "Man is a tree of the field" (Deuteronomy 20:19). There is a Chassidic saying that explains this verse. If a tree grows in isolation it is likely to become crooked and bent. However, trees that grow together in a forest grow straight and tall--they "keep each other straight," so to speak. Similarly, for truth to be upheld it is fundamental that human beings do not live in intellectual isolation, only hearing views that reinforce their own. Vigorous and respectful debate with the aim of reaching the truth is crucial if one is to remain intellectually healthy.<BR/><BR/>Respectful debate amongst scholars with divergent views has always been a hallmark of Judaism. The Talmud is replete with debate amongst rabbis who disagreed with one another. They were not afraid to debate because being proven wrong was not seen in a negative light; they only had one agenda--to reach the truth. And even if a consensus could not be reached, it did not mean that either side was entirely wrong.<BR/><BR/>The Talmud says that divergent views can both be seen as the words of the living G-d (Talmud, Eruvin, 13b). There is a deep profundity in this statement. As long as we are taught to appreciate that divinity is also found within the view of people who disagree with us, then respect and dignity will be paid to intellectual opponents.<BR/><BR/>This Talmudic dictum implores us to engage with people who are in our opinion mistaken, because although their view may not be ultimately accepted, it is nonetheless legitimate. This element of respect for the views of others is a critical ingredient of a decent, harmonious, strong and healthy society.<BR/><BR/>Now more than ever, the Talmudic model of respect for intellectual rivals should be seriously heeded. Yes, we can disagree--and even passionately so. <B>However, we must never allow ourselves to become so entrenched that we stop talking to each other--or "talk" only to belittle, defame and delegitimize the other's view.</B><BR/><BR/>The other and his/her views always have something to teach us, if only we are open to the lesson.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>That being said, I don't think it serves anyone, least of all the Left to keep calling George Bush "evil." It invalidates what might otherwise be a reasonable position.<BR/><BR/>Sorry but I'm just doing my small part to clean up my own house, which is located somewhere Left-of-Center.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-1147374646705378322006-05-11T14:10:00.000-05:002006-05-11T14:10:00.000-05:00Yes, it was cleverly worded to give the appearance...Yes, it was cleverly worded to give the appearance that Democrats are honorable, when all it really says is that they are less corrupt than Republicans right now, which in the end, isn't saying much :)Dan Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08387429717617727003noreply@blogger.com