tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post1785348898335404147..comments2023-07-20T10:30:43.820-05:00Comments on Musings of a Minor Mennonite: Proposition 8 The MusicalDan Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08387429717617727003noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-25128114729346295422008-12-20T09:57:00.000-06:002008-12-20T09:57:00.000-06:00pg,You haven't a heard a word I have said. I am t...pg,<BR/><BR/>You haven't a heard a word I have said. I am tired of being mischaracterized by self-righteous apostates. <BR/><BR/>22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-71134020495133627742008-12-19T19:44:00.000-06:002008-12-19T19:44:00.000-06:00I heard Terry Gross's interview today with Paul We...I heard Terry Gross's interview today with Paul Weyrich, who founded the Heritage Foundation and came up with the name "The Moral Majority." He just died at age 66.<BR/><BR/>What he said about homosexuality was that, everything was just fine back when gay people kept to themselves and weren't out making noise, when society accepted that there were gay people but didn't have to see them or hear them.<BR/><BR/>I think that is basically what the religious right today really wants, the return of the closet. They don't want to have to acknowledge gayness at all.<BR/><BR/>There is a graven image in the heads of the religious right, an image of family, white picket fence Leave it to Beaver that hasn't represented reality in a long time.<BR/><BR/>If the religious right wants to maintain an idea of gayness as immoral, and keep gay people unequal, well, I think they should keep it to themselves and not be out there fighting to deny gay people equal rights. <BR/><BR/>In other words, I think antigay forces like Robert should head right back into that closet themselves and shut up.<BR/><BR/>Equally cryptic to your "solution" for gay people is your statement that we're headed for a world of pain. It's a veiled threat.<BR/><BR/>I certainly hope Obama mentions gay people in his inaugural address, as he did in his acceptance speech.<BR/><BR/>Gay people need to be included at the table. Being gay is not any of the horrible things you keep saying about it, Robert. And I will continue to speak out every time you allude to gayness in relation to temper, lust, pride, adultery, and every other thing you so glibly compare it to. You are talking about the basic human sexuality and love that millions of people share or want to share. You are talking about their basic humanity.<BR/><BR/>I don't know why I have given you a forum for your ignorance in the first place, but now that I have, I don't know how to get out of it. As long as you keep slandering gay people with your blanket condemnations and ignorance, I must reply.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-85034704241719630862008-12-19T19:34:00.000-06:002008-12-19T19:34:00.000-06:00So, as best as I can understand, you think gay peo...So, as best as I can understand, you think gay people should just pray about it and be changed.<BR/><BR/>I don't think you hate gay people. I think you hate the fact that they are gay. <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, it's the same thing. Because they can't be expected to change. <BR/><BR/>So, please confirm if that is your answer. Gay people should change.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-47560134668694326252008-12-19T18:58:00.000-06:002008-12-19T18:58:00.000-06:00pg,I have answered your question about a half-doez...pg,<BR/><BR/>I have answered your question about a half-doezen times now, but I will try again. <BR/><BR/>Each of us is burdened with something about ourselves that God wants to sanctify. Each of us is different. Some people face issues of temper, others lust for multiple woman, others pride, and countless countless other predispositions. <BR/><BR/>You think I hate gay people. Personlly, I don't care what you think of me, because I know I care about those who are different a lot more than you do. You are happy to deny them God's power, and think you are so much more righteous than me. Think what you need to to justify yourself, but God will be the judge. <BR/><BR/>This country is going to feel a lot of pain in the upcoming years, and I will not say I told you so. I will be there to help you when you are ready to listen.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-76986924268700259872008-12-19T17:23:00.000-06:002008-12-19T17:23:00.000-06:00I'm accepting the Rick Warren thing with Obama, mo...I'm accepting the Rick Warren thing with Obama, mostly because as my niece in San Francisco has said when there are protests going outside in the streets: "Gay people are used to being oppressed." <BR/><BR/>But I though playwright Christopher Durang's comments on the sadness of the situation were also worth reading. Sigh.<BR/><BR/>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-durang/gay-and-feeling-hurt-by-o_b_152348.htmlPGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-9134396426995110632008-12-19T17:20:00.000-06:002008-12-19T17:20:00.000-06:00Robert, Your mind is a thing unto itself. Polygam...Robert, Your mind is a thing unto itself. Polygamy is illegal. Adultery is sometimes illegal, in some places and in some situations.<BR/>I know you think gayness is immoral, even if it cannot be changed and a person has no choice in the matter of being gay. And this is what I have consistently asked of you and what you have consistently refused to respond to:<BR/><BR/>What is a gay person to do with his life in order to be OK in your eyes? <BR/><BR/>What would you have gay people do?<BR/><BR/>What would you have the teenager who realizes he or she is gay do to plan for the rest of their lives? <BR/><BR/>Without answering that in a way that is meaningful and true, you are doing nothing more than bullying and oppressing gay people and wishing them harm, which is constantly doled out by people who think nothing of bashing, killing, torturing, and oppressing these "immoral" creatures you so readily consign to hell.<BR/><BR/>PGPGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-36792445688970122832008-12-19T16:22:00.000-06:002008-12-19T16:22:00.000-06:00pg,I don't think homosexuality should be outlawed ...pg,<BR/><BR/>I don't think homosexuality should be outlawed anymore than I think adultery should be outlawed. It isn't the government's responsability to outlaw every sinful activity. Human agency isn't the answer. <BR/><BR/>Tim, I never said people weren't born with certain predispositions. Actually, the fact that people are born with all kinds of sexual abnormalities is my whole point. Why single out gayness as acceptable, and others as not. Pg cited whether something is criminal as his litmus test, then backed away from it. <BR/><BR/>However, I did appreciate your candor on what you would have done if you were the author of the Bible. Wanting to be God and set the rules is always at the heart of who we are all as humans. Please don't take that as a put-down; I have been there.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-2329599359877355662008-12-18T11:48:00.000-06:002008-12-18T11:48:00.000-06:00"Would you have refrained from voting on Prop 8 th..."Would you have refrained from voting on Prop 8 then?"<BR/><BR/>Hadn't really thought about it. Coulda...woulda...shoulda...<BR/>I won't really know until it makes it on the ballot in my state the next time I vote. <BR/><BR/>By the way, God already spit me out of his mouth. Which is why I have no faith.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-40957361190394420582008-12-18T10:02:00.000-06:002008-12-18T10:02:00.000-06:00I know it sounded as if I were trying to change so...I know it sounded as if I were trying to change someone's mind. I know better. I think, being raised a pacifist, I just enjoy this sublimated form of wrestling, dueling, debate, argument, throwing shoes, or whatever it is.<BR/><BR/>Robert, Homosexuality -- Legal or Illegal?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-25735814123316218782008-12-18T08:57:00.000-06:002008-12-18T08:57:00.000-06:00"God's love holds us to the Earth"The was deleted ..."God's love holds us to the Earth"<BR/>The was deleted from the book of 'Tim' during the King James alteration. That "Asshat" sentiment or belief, waned about the same time that they figured out the world was not flat.Fingtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09103884501838746705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-41897898000611030792008-12-18T08:41:00.000-06:002008-12-18T08:41:00.000-06:00Jesus Christ, the one time I check the "email me f...Jesus Christ, the one time I check the "email me follow-up comments" box, I get 15 messages a day. <BR/><BR/>PG, you're not going to change anyone's mind. Folks like Robert and Pastor Mike believe that homosexuality is a sin, a choice, along the lines of pedophilia.<BR/><BR/>I, along with the professional psychological community, vehemently disagree with them, but there you have it. If I could go back in time and influence the guys who compiled the Bible (400 years after Jesus died, BTW) I would take out two things: any mention of homosexuality and the bullshit about the world being created in seven days. <BR/><BR/>It is those two items that keep standing in the way of science and social justice. <BR/><BR/>Instead we have homophobes and sciencephobes selectively using Bible passages to promote hate and denigrate science.<BR/><BR/>I've always said Thank God that the Bible doesn't mention anything like "God's love holds us to the Earth" because they you would have a bunch of Christian asshats running around denying the "theory of gravity."Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02965005772593835694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-67809771193811193252008-12-18T07:01:00.000-06:002008-12-18T07:01:00.000-06:00Thank you for taking a stand. That is, I think yo...Thank you for taking a stand. That is, I think you took a stand. <BR/><BR/>Or maybe you were the lukewarm water Jesus spat from his mouth.<BR/><BR/>I think I will take the same position on abortion that you take on gay marriage. Not for it. Not against it. Won't do it myself. Wash my hands of the question. (Hmmm. That seems to be a pro-choice option, doesn't it?) <BR/><BR/>Would you have refrained from voting on Prop 8 then?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-7140711189567534772008-12-18T06:51:00.000-06:002008-12-18T06:51:00.000-06:00Hey, Horton hears a Who, ...I mean...Brownie hears...Hey, Horton hears a Who, ...I mean...Brownie hears a question! (I do love straight [not hetereo]questions)<BR/><BR/>Where do I stand on gay marriage? Hmmm....<BR/><BR/>I don't stand anywhere. I don't care. Live and let live. I don't oppose it. I don't support it. Just live. And do no harm to others. <BR/><BR/>Is that a straight [not hetereo} enough answer? Or did I change the subject?<BR/><BR/>Speaking of changing the subject...Did you hear the one about the Buddhist monk who went up to the hot dog vendor and asked: "Could you make me one with Everything?"<BR/><BR/>Abortion is wrong.<BR/><BR/>Peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-83164041517232101482008-12-17T22:40:00.000-06:002008-12-17T22:40:00.000-06:00To recap: I mention Newsweek story.Robert quotes B...To recap: <BR/>I mention Newsweek story.<BR/>Robert quotes Bible to promote anti-gay marriage.<BR/>I call him a bully and ask what he would have gay people do.<BR/>Brownie chimes in, changing the subject by saying "Stick to the subject."<BR/>Robert compares gay people to polygamists.<BR/>I ask whether Robert believes homosexuality should be made illegal.<BR/>I ask Brownie where he stands on "the subject" of gay marriage.<BR/>Brownie and Robert change the subject and do not answer anything, because they cannot.<BR/>I win.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-15005389845155397382008-12-17T21:04:00.000-06:002008-12-17T21:04:00.000-06:00What? A sense of humor? In Robert? I don't beli...What? A sense of humor? In Robert? <BR/><BR/>I don't believe it.<BR/><BR/>So, should homosexuality be illegal?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-10245056173808907582008-12-17T20:55:00.000-06:002008-12-17T20:55:00.000-06:00I love gay people.I love gay people.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-46200483306248488662008-12-17T20:26:00.000-06:002008-12-17T20:26:00.000-06:00Why are we talking about polygamy? I can't answer...Why are we talking about polygamy? I can't answer anything about polygamy. I've never even met a polygamist. I met a prostitute once. Never had sex with a prostitute. I don't think you could pay me to have sex with a prostitute.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I have known and loved lots of gay people, though. There's just really nothing to compare here. <BR/><BR/>And if you try again to tell me you love gay people and only want what's best for them, I may vomit.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-13943104053376627302008-12-17T20:13:00.000-06:002008-12-17T20:13:00.000-06:00Homosexuality HAS been illegal in the past and it ...Homosexuality HAS been illegal in the past and it still is illegal many places. That doesn't change the fact that people have no choice in the matter of being gay. Once again, you misattribute my message and do not answer the question at the same time. <BR/><BR/>Do you think gayness should be made illegal again?<BR/><BR/>You have to answer my question before you once again try to deflect the issue with another, different, and basically idiotic question, comparing polygamy to homosexuality. Your attitude to gay people is to deny them sexuality altogether. That is unfair and, again, cruel. The polygamist is not denied sexuality altogether.<BR/><BR/>But, the question was, and I do indeed want to know, do you believe homosexuality should be illegal?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-19681736171632790412008-12-17T19:55:00.000-06:002008-12-17T19:55:00.000-06:00Interesting, so since a democracy made them illega...Interesting, so since a democracy made them illegal, you think they are wrong? So if we passed a law outlawing homosexual behavior, you would change your stance. <BR/><BR/>Fascinating. <BR/><BR/>You have not offered a suitable alternative for those men who need more than one woman to keep them satified. You offer an option for them first, and then we will talk.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-16866744435534126482008-12-17T19:45:00.000-06:002008-12-17T19:45:00.000-06:00This again.Incest, polygamy, pedophilia, zoophilia...This again.<BR/><BR/>Incest, polygamy, pedophilia, zoophilia (however you spell it), prostitution... <BR/><BR/>Completely. Apples. And. Oranges.<BR/><BR/>And a much worse and false condemnation and judgment of gay people than calling someone a "bully."<BR/><BR/>For one thing, all your comparisons are to CRIMES.<BR/><BR/>As I said to my friend Pastor Mike recently, you can compare gayness to adultery or polygamy if you want, but you have a reasonable solution for the heterosexual people -- you will accept that they can live whole lives, with single partners, in loving relationships, companionship, and community. For gay people, however, you offer nothing. Isolation. Solitude. Exile. Hatred. <BR/><BR/>You have nothing to offer gay people but your hatred and bigotry. And, given your comparisons, you probably believe gayness should be re-criminalized, too. Do you?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-66223868285020449482008-12-17T19:31:00.000-06:002008-12-17T19:31:00.000-06:00pg,What about pepole who want to marry their sibli...pg,<BR/><BR/>What about pepole who want to marry their siblings? What about people who want to marry their pets? What about groups of 3 or more? <BR/><BR/>Why don't you go fight for those people's rights too. You know, I bet their is a group in Utah that wasns polygamy to be made legal. For that matter, why not prostitution. After all, who am I to suggest it might be wrong for two consenting adults to enter a mutual transaction. And it's all about love; one person loves the sex; the other loves the money they get for providing sex. <BR/><BR/>You are such a hypocrite for not fighting for legalized prositution.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-5813065481347659672008-12-17T18:21:00.000-06:002008-12-17T18:21:00.000-06:00Robert, I am fascinated by the way your mind works...Robert, <BR/><BR/>I am fascinated by the way your mind works.<BR/><BR/>You continue to assume gayness is sin (and -- probably rightly so -- think everyone else thinks so, too). So you get away with your illogical and cruel comparisons to addictions, adultery, and who knows what all.<BR/><BR/>It is offensive. It is cruel. And you ARE a bully.<BR/><BR/>You similarly assume I know nothing about addiction. You have no idea how much and how intimately I know about addiction.<BR/><BR/>You write: <I>All you have to offer people is a denial of God's ability to deal with our own sin nature.</I> <BR/><BR/>I don't deny God anything. But I know God is not going to change someone's sexual orientation. Addictions can be overcome. Being gay is wholly different from addiction.<BR/><BR/>And as for staying on task, Brownie Whoever You Are, why don't you comment on the subject at hand instead of decided who and who doesn't call people names? Are gay people entitled to full equality under the law in their choices of love and relationships? Why or why not?<BR/><BR/>Grrrr.<BR/><BR/>I've stopped being nice. I've become a (nonviolent) Malcolm X or a Larry Kramer in this fight. I've thrown off the gloves.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-77514669636379266672008-12-17T15:58:00.000-06:002008-12-17T15:58:00.000-06:00What makes homosexuality a sin, cause you say so?What makes homosexuality a sin, cause you say so?Fingtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09103884501838746705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-91393631613588157972008-12-17T15:46:00.000-06:002008-12-17T15:46:00.000-06:00pg,You have no clue how chemically binding addicti...pg,<BR/><BR/>You have no clue how chemically binding addictions can be. What makes that person who has to rob and steal to buy drugs to keep himself from feeling excruciating pain of withdrawl any less deserving of a freedom of lifestyle than a homosexual. <BR/><BR/>Cause you say so? I don't think so. <BR/><BR/>All you have to offer people is a denial of God's ability to deal with our own sin nature.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-18047924660329027042008-12-17T12:05:00.000-06:002008-12-17T12:05:00.000-06:00I don't know what or who you are, brownie. It see...I don't know what or who you are, brownie. It seems Dan called you "Mike," so that's a clue.<BR/><BR/>I still don't see that calling someone a bully -- for disparaging consistently a certain kind of people, stereotyping and scapegoating them -- is all that uncivil or venomous. Maybe "I" calls em like I sees em.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.com