tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post4866918525296163207..comments2023-07-20T10:30:43.820-05:00Comments on Musings of a Minor Mennonite: Go Pink MennosDan Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08387429717617727003noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-65647322232371776242009-07-27T06:42:36.037-05:002009-07-27T06:42:36.037-05:00"Love they neighbor as thyself""Love they neighbor as thyself"brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-5466346965091761322009-07-23T17:19:24.073-05:002009-07-23T17:19:24.073-05:00I wonder what Jesus would say.I wonder what Jesus would say.Robert Sievershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073575336019621976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-85596318726301537872009-07-20T12:58:03.565-05:002009-07-20T12:58:03.565-05:00Well thank goodness we got that settled.Well thank goodness we got that settled.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-43675975648600290432009-07-20T12:15:59.148-05:002009-07-20T12:15:59.148-05:00I want full and equal rights for everyone.I want full and equal rights for everyone.brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-64231698293873561032009-07-20T11:58:22.398-05:002009-07-20T11:58:22.398-05:00I don't know what you're about, Brownie. ...I don't know what you're about, Brownie. <br /><br />To say you "disagree" with someone's sexual orientation strikes me as offensive and not at all the same as saying you don't like Brussel sprouts. <br /><br />Would you say you "disagree" with liking Brussel sprouts? It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement. Neither is sexual orientation a matter of taste or choice.<br /><br />It's different to say you do not have a gay sexual orientation than to say you "disagree" with a gay sexual orientation.<br /><br />I'm just saying, and all I've ever been saying, which may or may not have anything to do with you at all so far as I can tell, is that "accepting" gay people because "we are all sinners" is not promoting equality. It is calling gay people sinners for the love they have a right to express.<br /><br />For all your indignation, I have not heard you say say outright that you support full equal rights for gay people. Only that you disagree with stuff.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-85351586841100727532009-07-20T11:44:50.174-05:002009-07-20T11:44:50.174-05:00You might like brussel sprouts. I don't. Doe...You might like brussel sprouts. I don't. Does that mean I hate you because I don't like them? NO. Does it mean I will protest everyone who eats brussell sprouts? Exclude them from my church (which I don't really have anyway, remember?) Drag them through the dirt? No, no and no.<br /><br />I think it's perfectly fine to disagree with someone and yet still live and let live. If you haven't come to accept that not everyone is going to think like you do, then life is going to be way more of a struggle for you than it really needs to be.brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-74991248733387648242009-07-20T07:44:52.643-05:002009-07-20T07:44:52.643-05:00Seems like gobbledygook.
I don't understand &...Seems like gobbledygook.<br /><br />I don't understand "disagreeing" with someone because of their sexual orientation. What else do you mean by disagreeing with "the way they live," unless you are condemning them?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-42106118006524990412009-07-20T07:01:35.193-05:002009-07-20T07:01:35.193-05:00I disagree with them because I'm straight. I ...I disagree with them because I'm straight. I AM that or CHOSE that or whatever; they are what they are, for whatever reason. I DO disagree with them, it's true, because I don't choose to live as they do, from a sexual preference veiwpoint, but that doesn't automatically mean I condemn them or hate them or even think less of them. I have had gay, lesbian and bi- friends, and didn't give a crap about any of that.<br /><br />Furthermore, I am not superior to anyone at all, for any reason, you pick it: religious, sexual, racial, social or financial status, whatever. I see us all as flawed. You apparently think that gays are not flawed and deserve to be treated like gods just because they are gay. I don't think like that for any group you'd want to point out.<br /><br />I am however, PG, very curious as to why you seem so hell-bent as painting me as hating gay people. <br />Is it because my viewpoint is not exactly like yours? I would call that intolerance on your part. And from someone who apparently tries so hard to be tolerant toward gays, I would think you could extend at least a bit of the same courtesy toward me. But we'll see.brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-43996821119289865612009-07-17T15:54:13.900-05:002009-07-17T15:54:13.900-05:00Well, even though you have "run" and thu...Well, even though you have "run" and thus exempt yourself from further comment, I must say you have thoroughly confused me.<br /><br />You wrote, as "Father Brown," that:<br /><i>I am forced to rule that homosexuality is contrary to the tenents of this church. However, if any LGBT folks want to join, they're welcome to. Just because I disagree with them, doesn't mean I won't include them.</i><br /><br />So maybe it's worse than calling them sinners. However you are relegating gay people, you clearly as "Father Brown" are superior to them and condescending to allow them to join your church.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-20342147845609618842009-07-17T15:48:16.824-05:002009-07-17T15:48:16.824-05:00I insisted nothing of the kind. Here is what I wr...I insisted nothing of the kind. Here is what I wrote: <br /><br />"LGBT's wouldn't hold any lesser place in (my) natural church than sinners do in the christian one. We all fall short."<br /><br />I did not count their homosexuality as a sin. That is your prejudice, (or postjudice) not my words. You assumed the falling short was about sex. Anywaym,If we all fall short in some part of life, then who cares where? I am not the judge of someone's morality or lifestyle.<br /><br /><br />Non-sequiter: If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?<br /><br />Gotta run....brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-76584373888750298342009-07-17T12:13:19.555-05:002009-07-17T12:13:19.555-05:00The only thing you haven't addressed is the on...The only thing you haven't addressed is the only thing I care about. <br /><br />You sidestep my point entirely.<br /><br />You allow gay people into your church, but you insist that it is a sin if a gay person expresses love for his or her partner. No self-respecting person, gay or not, should accept that as a condition for membership in your church.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-22688477497193967342009-07-17T11:48:08.243-05:002009-07-17T11:48:08.243-05:00Time to get a few facts out in the open:
1. I'...Time to get a few facts out in the open:<br /><br />1. I'm celibate. <br /> <br />2. I attend no church, and haven't for many years.<br /><br />3.I don't care what people do in the privacy of their homes, as long as it hurts no one, and I don't have to know about it or watch it.<br /><br />4. I don't own a horse.<br /><br />5. I disaree that allowing gay people into a church is tantamount to keeping someone in their place. If the people of the church really thought like that, they WOULDN'T let them in their church. Just my opinion.<br /><br />6. My right middle finger is shorter than my left middle finger.<br /><br />I don't know if you'd call that a confession or not. I don't. They are just facts. To confess, you must feel guilty about something. I don't anymore. I guess that's why I abondonded church. I don't like the guilt trip they had me on for so many years. <br /><br />Peace.brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-78554956539818652012009-07-17T08:09:10.936-05:002009-07-17T08:09:10.936-05:00BUT... What I guess I am saying that you are not ...BUT... What I guess I am saying that you are not is that... I'm saying being gay is not a sin to begin with. Having gay sex is not a sin. <br /><br />You can't go there. You just say, we're all sinners.<br /><br />And that's why I want to say that thing about your horse.<br /><br />You may or may do things in bed with your wife that are proscribed by some verse or other in the OT; I don't know. I don't want to know. Please don't confess anything to me. <br /><br />It's not my business. But you can join my church if you want.<br /><br /><br /><br />OK?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-28612765067614816622009-07-17T07:53:47.207-05:002009-07-17T07:53:47.207-05:00I don't think you get it. Or maybe I don'...I don't think you get it. Or maybe I don't get it. <br /><br />I completely agree. I have never disagreed. WE ARE ALL SINNERS.<br /><br />I AM THE BIGGEST SINNER OF ALL, NO DOUBT.<br /><br />But to point it out about gay people when "letting" them into your church, as a kind of "look how tolerant we are" attitude, is needless and offensive. <br /><br />It's keeping gay people in their place. Or at least that's how it sounds to me.<br /><br />So, would I join your church? As Sarah Palin once said, thanks but no thanks.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-2389029559787202262009-07-17T06:56:48.433-05:002009-07-17T06:56:48.433-05:00I believe christian doctrine points out that no si...I believe christian doctrine points out that no sin is worse than another. It is said that to break one point in the law is to break the whole law and that there is only one punishment for breaking the law: death. This is why, I believe, they say that all are sinners. So to point out that this person did this or this person did that, is really irrelevant, if you believe in christian doctrine. Because the point is not what you did, but that you should be seeking to find grace and mercy, and thereby avoid the punishment of law.<br /><br />I don't believe it's any more demeaning to say that I told a lie than to say you coveted your neighbors ox. They are equally demeaning (supposedly, in consideration of the law of moses), in that they seperate us from YHWH (don't throw stones, I didn't say it out loud). So to say that it's demeaning to call the kettle black, well maybe, but we're all pots in this anology, so what does it matter? If folks disagree so vehemently with the christian church, which views sex (gay or straight) outside of marriage as a sin, then maybe they should look for a different church or found one of their own. It is a free country (partially) after all. <br /><br />I think folks tend to confuse the way a church believes with the way a government should behave. And as Spock would say: That is not logical.brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-83688302053892954562009-07-16T17:39:40.219-05:002009-07-16T17:39:40.219-05:00I have to apologize and backpedal. (And make excus...I have to apologize and backpedal. (And make excuses, too, I guess. I was posting from an iPod Touch while taking a tour in Springfield.)<br /><br />I in no way meant to refer to "brownie" when I wrote Mayor Brown. It was inadvertent.<br /><br />I meant to say that letting any couple into one's congregation does not require the disclaimer "we are all sinners." When that is applied in reference to gay people to show how inclusive one is, it is hypocritical. If one were truly inclusive, it would not be mentioned at all.<br /><br />ButI have heard that used over and over again -- we're all sinners -- when saying one should accept gay people. It is demeaning. And I have stopped being nice about it. <br /><br />Yes, I used to be nice. Really.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-11715987246306930062009-07-16T11:51:00.187-05:002009-07-16T11:51:00.187-05:00We are all sinners. But only invoke that when gays...We are all sinners. But only invoke that when gays are involved is prejudicePGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-70327112439971846112009-07-16T11:44:25.133-05:002009-07-16T11:44:25.133-05:00It's oddly disturbing to me that some of the m...It's oddly disturbing to me that some of the most bitter, bigoted people I've come to know about are on the left. They seem to be great at seeing the specks in someone else's eye while ignoring the logs in their own.mayor brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-68860914123878623122009-07-16T08:27:17.716-05:002009-07-16T08:27:17.716-05:00"Look! It's Mayor Brown and his lovely w..."Look! It's Mayor Brown and his lovely wife. What a fine couple. They've been together 25 years. Never had children. We're all sinners."<br /><br />Makes no sense.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-30484851644541354712009-07-16T06:47:30.875-05:002009-07-16T06:47:30.875-05:00Gee...and ah...thanks!...for your concern about my...Gee...and ah...thanks!...for your concern about my horse.<br /><br />And the Karmic wheel continues to turn...<br /><br />Que sera, sera.brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-90980949152721022432009-07-15T19:50:37.840-05:002009-07-15T19:50:37.840-05:00I've been out of town all day visiting the Lin...I've been out of town all day visiting the Lincoln Museum in Springfield, which I thought was fantastic.<br /><br />It just irks me no end when people say, referring to gay people, "we're all sinners." <br /><br />I so want to say, f*ck you and the horse you rode in on. That's not equality. That's still saying that gay people are less/worse/inferior to non-gay people.PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-82098609198037067572009-07-15T11:47:53.828-05:002009-07-15T11:47:53.828-05:00But, still, with this reproduction... What about a...But, still, with this reproduction... What about art? What about creation other than fleshy replicas? Is that chopped liver?<br /><br />pg-<br />If I understand your question(s) correctly...I have no problem with art created by anyone. As long as it's art. Doensn't have to be beautiful art, it just has to say something valuable about the human condition. <br /><br />And no, LGBT's wouldn't hold any lesser place in (my) natural church than sinners do in the christian one. We all fall short.brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-68420957130193442692009-07-15T08:00:12.423-05:002009-07-15T08:00:12.423-05:00No, I knew you were kind of joking. And, yes, I j...No, I knew you were kind of joking. And, yes, I jumped the gun and should have acknowledged that your church would include gay people (although, perhaps, lesser in regard, or subordinate).<br /><br />But, still, with this reproduction... What about art? What about creation other than fleshy replicas? Is that chopped liver?PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-88561030602522359852009-07-15T06:54:59.914-05:002009-07-15T06:54:59.914-05:00"The Laws of Nature include gay partnerships ..."The Laws of Nature include gay partnerships in almost all species"<br /><br />PG-<br />Sorry. You misunderstood. I am "forming" a new "church" as a joke. It was based around my own interpretation of the "Law of Nature" that sprung out of a conversation I had with Danny Boy a few weeks ago, and it was meant mostly as an inside joke for him. Even then though, you must admit, I was being inclusive to LGBT's. <br /><br />Still, I think nature shows us quite clearly that homosexuality does nothing to propagate the species. There will always be those animals that "break" the "law", but they don't have politics or rights to worry about; only consuming, expelling what they've consumed, resting and (hopefully) reproducing.brownienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22267600.post-69463637317540970652009-07-14T07:46:26.857-05:002009-07-14T07:46:26.857-05:00I'm a little late to this conversation, but fo...I'm a little late to this conversation, but for Father Brownie and Fingtree, I have a couple of questions and comments. 1) The Laws of Nature include gay partnerships in almost all species. 2) Reproduction is important. I've done it myself. So has Levi Johnston. (Maybe it's not always a good thing). But why should reproduction be a requirement for worship of God or any religion? And 3) Over what is the disagreement? If it is whether one group of people should not be allowed full and equal rights and should be considered second-class citizens, then I would say one cannot in good conscience "agree to disagree."PGregory Springerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09406082843885356999noreply@blogger.com